Hard Questions

frank, open and honest discussions

Does the Quran say that The Bible could not have been corrupted ?

with 40 comments


This very good question was sent to me in an email by my friend Andrew. I asked and got his permission to use the question as a basis of a separate post, since I believe it is an important question that needs to be addressed.

Here is what Andrew said: >

Rasheed,
I came across something in the Qu’ran I thought was remarkable. We have had everal discussions about the validity of the biblical testimony. What I did not realize is that the Qu’ran claims Allah’s inspiration of the Torah (2:87), Psalms (4:163), and Gospel (3:3 &
5:46). The Qu’ran also says that the words of Allah can never be altered
(6:34, 6:115, & 10:64). How does this fit into the context of our discussions?

> Andrew

ANSWER

Andrew,

Looking at the original Arabic text of the Quran, which is very precise in its use of words, you will find three different Arabic words and phrases used to describe what English translations refer to as ‘words of God’,

  1. Word of Allah and Words of Allah : Arabic [Kalimatu Allah and Kalimat (pl) Allah]
  2. Speech of Allah conveyed to his messengers: [Kalamu Allah]
  3. Scriptures/Book(s) revealed : [Kitab Allah, Kutub Allah]

1: Although the generic Arabic term ‘word’ can mean any part of speech, the Phrase: {Word(s) of Allah}, as used in the Quran, always refers to the Decrees that God makes, When Allah decrees something, He says ‘Be’ and it is. This is attested to In Islam and also in the Bible.

Phrase 2: {Scriptures}: The words revealed by God in Scriptures are referred to everywhere in the Quran as: ‘Books’ or {Kitab or Kutub}. The Torah, The Injil (Gospel) and The Quran are always described in The Quran as such, and NEVER as ‘The Word(s) of Allah’.

Phrase 3: {Kalamu Allah} usually refers to speech of God to His messengers, including the original Scriptures.


All three verses in your question use the phrases ‘Word of Allah’ or ‘Words of Allah’ which means his Decrees. Nowhere in the Quran does it say ‘None can alter the Scriptures’ or non can alter the ‘Speech of Allah’ or any thing close to this meaning.

Here are the verses you quoted in your Question, translated literally:

[Quran 6:34]:
Messengers indeed have been denied before thee, and they were patient under the denial and the persecution till Our succour reached them. There is none to alter the Words of Allah. Already there hath reached thee of the tidings of the messengers (We sent before).

The above verse is a reference to the Decree that God will always make his messengers victorious over their adversaries

[Quran 6:115]:
And the Word of your Lord has been fulfilled in truth and in justice. None can change His Words. And He is the All¬Hearer, the All¬Knower.(115)

Again, this is the most literal translation, and is a clear indication that the Words of Allah refers to what He decreed.

[Quran 10:62-64]:
Behold! verily on the friends of Allah there is no fear, nor shall they grieve; (62) Those who believe and (constantly) guard against evil― (63) For them are Glad Tidings, in the life of the Present and in the Hereafter: no change can there be in the Words of Allah. This is indeed the supreme Felicity. (64)

Yet again, this is an obvious reference to the Decree of Allah that His party shall not grieve.

There are other important examples of the usage of ‘Word of Allah’ in the Quran: Jesus is called the word of Allah because God said ‘Be” and he was created:

Allah says about Jesus in Surah 4 [Quran 4:171] :
O People of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning Allah save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers, and say not “Three” – Cease! (it is) better for you! – Allah is only One God. Far is it removed from His transcendent majesty that He should have a son. His is all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is sufficient as Defender. (171).

And Allah said of Jesus and Adam:

[Quran 3:58]
Lo! the likeness of Jesus with Allah is as the likeness of Adam. He created him of dust, then He said unto him: Be! and he is. {58}

And about Mary, mother of Jesus, Allah says:

[Quran 66:12]:
And Mary, daughter of Imran, whose body was chaste, therefor We breathed therein something of Our Spirit. And she put faith in the words of her Lord and His Books, and was of the obedient. (12)

Notice how the Quran says that Mary had put faith in her Lord’s words and His Books, the words conveyed to her by the Angles. The words of Allah are therefore distinct from the Scriptures in the Quranic narration.

  • Usage of Phrase 2: Scriptures/ Books of Allah:

When The Quran speaks of the Scriptures and Books of Allah (Phrase 2) it clearly states that it can be changed:

[Quran 3:79]
Therefore woe be unto those who write the Scripture with their hands and then say, “This is from Allah,” that they may purchase a small gain therewith. Woe unto them for that their hands have written, and woe unto them for that they earn thereby. (79)

And in Surah 5, Allah says:

[]Quran 5: 13-14]:
And because of their breaking their covenant, We have cursed them and made hard their hearts. They change words from their context and forget a part of that whereof they were admonished. Thou wilt not cease to discover treachery from all save a few of them. But bear with them and pardon them. Lo! Allah loveth the kindly. (13) And with those who say: “Lo! we are Christians,” We made a covenant, but they forgot a part of that whereof they were admonished. Therefor We have stirred up enmity and hatred among them till the Day of Resurrection, when Allah will inform them of their handiwork. (14)

You can see here that when mentioning the Scriptures/ Books, God says that people sometimes do write their own material instead of the Book of Allah and leave out or forget other parts.

What the Quran said 14 centuries ago, about changes to The Bible, is now undisputed common knowledge. There is hardly anyone who denies that changes were made to the Jewish and Christian Scriptures. People might argue about the extent and significance of these changes, but the fact that, there were deliberate changes, is virtually unchallenged.

In fact, in the English language, “word” can also mean “promise”, as in: ‘Andrew is a guy who keeps his word‘. People can obviously misquote Andrew, but he still keeps his “word”.

Allah Knoweth Best.

Best Regards
Rasheed

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Written by Rasheed Gadir

June 5, 2008 at 4:41 pm

40 Responses

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  1. [...] This is very interesting blog entry. I have also been in discussion with a gentleman name Chris on his blog regarding God, Islam and Christianity. The issue of revelatory sources is something that is very much overlooked in the discourse on religions. Although the issue of changes and corruption entering the Old and New Testaments have vacillated in religous discourse it is often glossed over or spurious points of conjecture are submitted by Orientalist regarding the Qur’an and its miraculous and unchanged nature. [...]

  2. I agree that the Bible has changed over the years. This is due to translation errors and conspiring church leaders. It was compounded by the fact there was no printing press until the 15th century, the Dark Ages, and general illiteracy of the people. However, the Qur’an is also ancient. How is it possible for it to escape such influences and subsequent changes?

    On another subject: Rasheed, is it possible to pose a question for discussion for all to research together? I think it is fascinating to bring together different points of view from the different religious viewpoints represented here. Would it be possible to do so without resorting to personal condemnation of each other and each others’ beliefs?

    Don

    June 5, 2008 at 7:41 pm

  3. Rasheed,

    How can we change the picture next to our names?

    Don

    Don

    June 5, 2008 at 8:08 pm

  4. Don

    I believe you need to login to your wordpress account then goto Profile and upload the photo of your choice, crop it you are done.

    Best regards
    Rasheed

    Rasheed

    June 5, 2008 at 8:23 pm

  5. Thanks, Rasheed. Hope this works!

    Don

    ojodoctor

    June 5, 2008 at 9:08 pm

  6. We still have our very first Quran frome Mohammed s.a.v time left.
    Actually we even have 3 copy left frome that time 1 is in Turkey Topkapi Museum! Quran is so speciell!

    Christians and Jews good becuse they belived in same God as we do but not in correct way becuse the Satan have made there leaders Reform there book and change the word of God. But God almighty Promised that Quran will be protected frome Satan and muslims do take it VERY S E R I O U S that not even 1 word should be changed frome Quran thats why muslims are very carefull when translating to another language letting original arabic and example English be in same book. The translation is never accepted as the true book of God. Only arabic and not even 1 word is changed within it.
    (((We still have our very first Quran frome Mohammed s.a.v time left)))!!!

    Abdurahman (means Gods Servent)

    June 6, 2008 at 3:20 pm

  7. Rasheed,

    If Allah’s words are not unchangeable, what protects the Qu’ran from corruption? What about the compilation of the Qu’ran by Uthman and the collection and destruction of all copies in existence at that time? Why destroy copies if they are the same or were they different?

    Andrew

    http://seekingtheface.wordpress.com

    Andrew

    June 6, 2008 at 5:57 pm

    • The holy Quran sends a clear message and unlike the bible Mohammed was present when the Quran was written so nobody could have change it , because Mohammed had it memorized and would of stopped them if they tried. And do not forget that Quran was copied fast.
      First of all, the bible wasn’t written by Jesus but his followers, so they choose what to put in the bible and there has been evidence that there were books/teachings not put in the bible because they referred to Jesus as servant to god these books were written by Paul
      so basically the bible is mans wards describing the teachings of Jesus, But the Quran is God’s words not Mohammad’s teachings, although Mohammed’s teachings are based on the Quran and what gibral had teached him

      so the bible is not god’s words but based on Jesus teachings, and that’s why when the Quran said God’s words cant be changed it referred to the Quran itself

      Yahya Hamed

      July 9, 2011 at 12:26 am

      • You say the bible was never written by Jesus but his followers?

        Ok the quran was never wriiten by god but by its follower muhammed
        The bible was never written by jesus because jesus is God and God is Jesus. God never wrote the bible his follwers did. Understand?

        inchrist

        December 30, 2012 at 10:42 pm

  8. Allah the almighty Protects it frome change. The original frome Mohammed s.a.v time left and thats my answer. But you cant understand even as i explain, becuse only the true followers of Allah is capable of understanding what you cant even dream of. Mohammed s.a.v said i came only for Perfeckt Muslims and that is 1% of the 1000%.

    Sadly some people need to find a way to cast dirt on Islam becuse more and more persons is becoming muslims. When they cant find a way they instead lie, and thats whats the problem most humans dont even read or know anything yet make up stuff. Truly i say to you there is now today AT WORLD living maybe 1 million or more muslims frome the 2.2 billion that have the QURAN all 600+ P A G E S in memory. Yes this will be hard for you to belive but we muslims frome 4 years old memories the W H O L E QURAN ! So perfectly memoriesed that every Ramadan we do Salat so our Imam that have Quran 600+ Pages in memory reads in our preying 20 pages in each day which after 30 days we have completed the whole QURAN in Ramadan. A T R U E M U S L I M reads 20 pages every day. Our imam 4 years old and now our imam is 40 so basicly he did read Quran frome 4 years to 40 is 36 years * 12 = 432 times! Quran Arabic is so speciell we could not change it even if we wanted. Becuse all muslims need to memory, ALL muslims that pray need to memories lots Sure in Quran which is a lot orelse we cant pray. Its hard for you to understand or me to explain but truly i say to you that God Protects Quran becuse God gives on our heart so much love when we read Quran we have so loyalty to it we take or all M U S L I M S take it very S E R I O U S that not even 1 word or 1 Alfabath should be changed and thats what our Prophet O R D E R E D us all MUSLIMS !!! We follow that order frome our soul AND heart !!!

    Abdurahman (means Gods Servent)

    June 7, 2008 at 10:04 am

  9. Abduhraham,

    What did muslims do before Johannes Gutenburg? How did the rank and file read copies of the Q’uran as illiterates?

    I congratulate you on your devotion and understand your reverence for your Holy Writ, but isn’t this a relatively modern historical phenomenon when compared to the antiquity of Islam?

    Don

    Don

    June 7, 2008 at 6:56 pm

  10. Abdelrahman and Andrew

    First I want to welcome Abelrahman, and thank both of you for the contributions.

    I think the conversation is drifting from the topic of the post, which was, to answer Andrew’s question on whether the Quran implies that the Bible is infallible.

    I have given my answer, and Andrew, you immediately questioned the transmission of the Quran. I am happy to discuss the preservation and transmission of the Quran in a separate post, but, let us please concentrate on the job at hand, which to answer the many people who put forward an argument along the lines of Andrew’s original question.

    For this reason, I would like to request from you, Abdelrahman, to resubmit your last two comments, replacing the long quotations with shorter ones and placing a link to the source.

    I think, no Christian would admit to the authenticity of the Gospel of Barnabas, for he would have to cease to be Christian if he does. I personally do not have a set conviction one way or the other, I have not seen all the evidence, and I do not think the reasons put forward by Andrew for rejecting it are sufficient on their own.

    Thank you all

    Rasheed

    Rasheed

    June 9, 2008 at 2:17 am

    • The gospal of barnabas is fake

      inchrist

      December 30, 2012 at 10:43 pm

  11. For an article on Islam’s claims of falsification of biblical texts see:
    http://www.answering-islam.org/Bible/jrwhy.html

    Rasheed,

    Sorry I haven’t gotten to fully consider and reply to your post, but I will. I simply had a follow up question to the article I’d hoped you could clarify. I was curious if there was a separate provision that guaranteed the Qu’ran would not be changed. Is the Qu’ran internally called ‘kitab/kutub’?

    Andrew

    http://seekingtheface.wordpress.com

    Andrew

    June 9, 2008 at 6:06 am

  12. Abdurahman,

    The Gospel and Epistle of Barnabas are two completely separate books. Your article cites the Epistle, but you quoted from the Gospel. There is no evidence of the gospel of Barnabas early enough to accept it as truthful. There are mentions of a possible gospel, but not a single shred of evidence until Muslim apologists of the 11th century. The 11th century was also the beginning of the assault on the text of the Bible lead by Ibn-Khazem, while many teachers of Islam still accepted the biblical texts as true.

    Andrew

    http://seekingtheface.wordpress.com

    Andrew

    June 9, 2008 at 6:06 am

  13. Don,

    Your suggestion that we all research certain topics together is excellent. I will be waiting for a suggestion from you (preferably through an email).

    Rasheed

    Rasheed

    June 10, 2008 at 12:39 pm

  14. Do you want to belive in Islam that Quran is Allahs book ?

    MIRACLES OF THE QUR’AN 1 MOVIE

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    MIRACLES OF THE QUR’AN 2 MOVIE

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    MIRACLES OF THE QUR’AN 3 MOVIE

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    THE QUR’AN LEADS THE WAY TO SCIENCE

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    THE SIGNS OF THE LAST DAY

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    You said (((So Muhammad was right in saying that the Scriptures were changed in that the due to the very nature of translation, there are often words in both ancient Greek and Hebrew that DO NOT translate directly to English or Arabic.))) If one word of God is changed then can that be considered as book of God or book of humans with there evil desires ?

    Look at this example i have here! The 10 Commandments – God’s Revelation in the Old Testament

    ONE: ‘You shall have no other gods before Me.’

    Well you do have 3 gods or was it 2 or a Human God called Jesus ?This clearly shows you that Jesus is a Prophet not God. God have 300 wonderfull names is Torah and 300 in bible yet no one of them is Jesus.
    Jesus is Messiah which means in Hebrew anointed (Chosen by God or in another name Prophet)

    TWO: ‘You shall not make for yourself a carved image–any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.’

    Oh WOW please use your brain, dont almost every CHRUCH have JESUS and MARY carved image or Picture?
    Dont almost every Christian use a cross with JESUS ON IT IS THAT NOT ‘You shall not make for yourself a carved image–any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth??? then i dont know what it is.

    THREE: ‘You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.’

    FOUR: ‘Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.’
    The sabbath was Saturday but 300-325 AD MR Constantin ordered 12 Priest to remove old testament laws and only follow New testament and change sabbath day to Sunday (Lets change God Laws who care was he thinking maybe )?

    FIVE: ‘Honor your father and your mother.’

    SIX: ‘You shall not murder.’

    SEVEN: ‘You shall not commit adultery.’

    EIGHT: ‘You shall not steal.’

    NINE: ‘You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.’

    TEN: ‘You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor’s.’

    ROMAN OLD RELGION JUPITER AS GOD AND SON IS HERCULES RIGHT ?????????

    CONSTANTIN BECOMES CHRISTIAN > CHANGES JUPITERS NAME TO GOD AND HERCULES NAME TO JESUS WELL DONE?

    DAVINCI CODE SAYS CONSTANTIN MADE JESUS SON OF GOD BEFORE THAT JESUS WAS NOWN AS MIGHTY PROPHET!

    We see in history many People burned becuse they were magician or witches ? actually they were the followers of Jesus who was killed becuse they belived Jesus was prophet.

    Did you read the old Roman Empire History when the Followers of Jesus was Burned alive?
    When the same Empire became Christians they did same burning belivers of Jesus as Prophet!
    Witches and Magicians ! The Free thinkers !

    Abdurahman (means Gods Servent)

    June 10, 2008 at 3:10 pm

  15. No one in Islam can accept the biblical text to be the word of God Almighty.

    Ibn-Hazm (إبن حزم) got involved in the debate with Jews and Christians to answer their false claims. In the process he showed how the biblical texts were largely human and that the original revelations from God Almighty to Moses (i.e. the torah التوراه) and the revelations from God Almighty to Jesus (i.e. the enjil الإنجيل) were lost by alteration.

    Ibn-Hazm also responded to “some” Muslims (not “many” as given above) who accepted the biblical text for lack of knowledge on their part.

    Allah says very clearly in the Quran (verse 5:48 )

    وَأَنزَلْنَا إِلَيْكَ الْكِتَابَ بِالْحَقِّ مُصَدِّقًا لِّمَا بَيْنَ يَدَيْهِ مِنَ الْكِتَابِ وَمُهَيْمِنًا عَلَيْهِ …

    which may be translated as:

    “And We have sent down to you (O Muhammad) the Book (alkitab – this Qur’ân) in truth, confirming the Scripture that came before it and Muhaymin (with higher authority) over it (old Scriptures)…..”

    “higher authority” means that in case of discrepancies, the Quran is the ultimate reference.

    As for protecting the Quran, Allah says in the Quran (verse 15:9)

    إِنَّا نَحْنُ نَزَّلْنَا الذِّكْرَ وَإِنَّا لَهُ لَحَافِظُونَ

    which may be translated as:

    “Verily, We it is Who have sent down the Dhikr (i.e. the Qur’ân) and surely, We will guard it (from corruption).”

    There is no such guarantee given by God for the protection of His previous revelations.

    عبده

    June 11, 2008 at 8:43 am

    • Why because muhammed said so? Who is witness to muhammed speaking to God?

      inchrist

      December 30, 2012 at 10:45 pm

  16. Notes:

    First, the first verse is number should be 48 not 4… Obviously the 8 followed by the ) got replaced by the smiley face !

    Second, in the same verse, the word “Scripture” refers to the true original scriptures revealed to the messengers (Moses and Jesus) not what we have today, because what we have today is simply not the scripture which God Almighty sent down. What we have today is a mixture of some scripture fragments mixed with so much human contributions and should rightly be attributed to its human writers not to God Almighty.

    عبده

    June 11, 2008 at 8:53 am

  17. Abdo,

    Why would Allah “confirm” Scriptures before the Qu’ran that were largely false? When and how did these become false? Was it before or after the founding of Islam? I’ve not seen a verse where Allah calls past Scriptures false.

    Andrew

    http://seekingtheface.wordpress.com

    Andrew

    June 11, 2008 at 5:27 pm

  18. Can i ask a question ? Look at this text in Bibles!

    International Standard Version (©2008 )
    I can do nothing on my own accord. I judge according to what I hear,
    and my judgment is just, because I do not seek my own will but the
    will of the one who sent me.”

    John 4:34 Jesus said to them, “My food is to do the will of Him who
    sent Me and to accomplish His work.

    John 6:38 “For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will,
    but the will of Him who sent Me.

    American King James Version
    You men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved
    of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by
    him in the middle of you, as you yourselves also know:

    Acts 10:38 “You know of Jesus of Nazareth, how God anointed Him with
    the Holy Spirit and with power, and how He went about doing good and
    healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him.
    (NASB ©1995)

    Anointed means Chosen by God in other word a Prophet of God! Look at
    this example in Quran

    Lo! I come unto you with a sign from your Lord. Lo! I fashion for you
    out of clay the likeness of a bird, and I breathe into it and it is a
    bird by Allah’s leave. I heal him who was born blind, and the leper,
    and I raise the dead, by Allah’s leave. And I announce to you what
    you eat and what you store up in your houses. Lo! herein verily is a
    portent for you if you are to be believers.
    And (I come) confirming that which was before me of the Torah, and
    to make lawful some of that which was forbidden unto you. I come unto
    you with a sign from your Lord, so keep your duty to Allah and obey
    me. Lo! Allah is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him. That is a
    straight path. (Qur’an 3: 49-51).

    International Standard Version (©200
    Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? Nobody is good except for
    one-God. <<<<<<<<<>

    The Holy Spirit has been mentioned in the Quran several times and many
    questions have been raised about the identity of the Holy Spirit in
    the Quran. Many of the questions come from our Christian brothers and
    sisters who wonder if the Holy Spirit in the Quran is the third of
    their Trinity beliefs.
    Quran is very clear in denouncing Trinity (5:73) and affirming the
    Oneness of God Almighty. (112:1-4). The Holy Spirit in the Quran is
    clearly defined as the angel Gabriel who has been the angel-messenger
    between The Almighty God and the human beings, e.g. Mary, Jesus, and
    prophet Muhammed.

    In reference to Gabriel, the Arabic Quran calls him; “Ruhhil-
    Qudus” (Holy Spirit),
    “Ruuhanaa” (Our Spirit), “Ruuhul-’Amiin” (The Honest Spirit) and “Al-
    Ruh’ ” (The Spirit) . Thus, when reading the verses in the Quran, the
    whole Quran, we see that Gabriel is the Holy and Honest Bearer of
    Revelations. We learn from 2:97 that these references are indeed
    talking about Gabriel.

    [2:97] Say, “Anyone who opposes Gabriel should know that he has
    brought
    down this (Quran) into your heart, in accordance with GOD’s will,
    confirming
    previous scriptures, and providing guidance and good news for the
    believers.”

    [16:102] Say, “The Holy Spirit(GABRIEL) has brought it (Quran) down
    from your Lord, truthfully, to assure those who believe, and to
    provide a beacon and good news for the submitters.”

    [2:87] We gave Moses the scripture, and subsequent to him we sent
    other messengers, and we gave Jesus, son of Mary, profound miracles
    and supported him with the Holy Spirit(GABRIEL). Is it not a fact that
    every time a messenger went to you with anything you disliked, your
    ego caused you to be arrogant? Some of them you rejected, and some of
    them you killed.

    [2:253] These messengers; we blessed some of them more than others.
    For
    example, GOD spoke to one, and we raised some of them to higher ranks.
    And we gave Jesus, son of Mary, profound miracles and supported him
    with the Holy Spirit (GABRIEL).

    International Standard Version 2008
    And this is eternal life: to know you, the only true God, and the one
    whom you sent-Jesus the Messiah. (JESUS SAYS HERE THE ONY 1 TRUE GOD
    AND I M
    MESSIAH IN OTHER WORD PROPHET)!

    Gods Words Translation 1995
    The God of our ancestors Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob has glorified his
    servant Jesus. You handed Jesus over to Pilate. You rejected him in
    Pilate’s presence, even though Pilate had decided to let him go free.

    International Standard Version 2008
    For in this city both Herod and Pontius Pilate actually met together
    with the gentiles and the people of Israel to oppose your holy servant
    Jesus, whom you anointed
    (SERVANT AGAIN)?

    I can do nothing of my own authority” (5:30)

    King James Bible
    But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which
    I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.

    King James Bible
    Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved
    of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by
    him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

    “I cannot do anything of myself. I judge as I hear, and my judgment is
    honest because I am not seeking my own will but the will of him who
    sent me.” [ John 5:30 ]
    —————————————————————————­—————————————————————————­—————————————————————————­——–

    Jesus said: “My doctrine is not my own; it comes from him who sent
    me.” [ John 7:16

    ``...The man who hears my word and has faith in him who sent me
    possesses eternal life.''
    [ John 5:24 ]

    `…I have not come of myself. I was sent by One who has the right to
    send, and him you do not know. I know him because it is from him I
    come; he sent me.” [ John 7:28-29 ]

    Jesus looked up to heaven and said, “…Eternal life is this: to know
    you, the only true God, and him whom you have sent, Jesus
    Christ.” [ John 17:1-3 ]

    All who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.
    [ Romans 8:14 ]

    As he was setting out on a journey a man came running up, knelt down
    before him and asked, “Good Teacher, what must I do to share in
    everlasting life?” Jesus answered, “Why do you call me good? No one
    is good but God alone.” [ Mark 10:17-18 ]

    “None of those who call me `Lord’ will enter the kingdom of God, but
    only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.”
    [ Matthew 7:21 ]

    “…Go to my brothers and tell them, `I am ascending to my Father and
    your Father, to my God and your God.’ ” [ John 20:17 ]

    “God is my Lord and your Lord; you shall worship Him alone. This is
    the right path.”
    [ Quran 3:51, 19:36, & 43:64 ]

    Trinity, the doctrine of God taught by Christians that asserts that
    God is one in essence but three in “person,” Father, Son, and Holy
    Spirit. Neither the word Trinity, nor the explicit doctrine as such,
    appears in the New Testament, nor did Jesus and his followers intend
    to contradict the Shema in the Old Testament: “Hear O Israel: The
    Lord our God is one” (Deut. 6:4).
    [ Encyclopedia Britannica, 1975 ]

    Jesus’ Death
    This has been the single most controversial subject in the world. The
    Quran’s miraculous mathematical code has now provided the final answer
    to this topic:
    Jesus’ soul was raised, i.e., he was put to death prior to the arrest
    and crucifixion of his body. Thus, his persecutors arrested, tortured,
    and crucified an empty body – Jesus was already gone to the world of
    souls (3:55, 4:157).

    They plotted and schemed, but so did God, and God is the best schemer.
    Thus, God said,
    “O Jesus, I am putting you to death, and raising you to Me; I will
    save you from the disbelievers.”
    [ Quran 3:54-55 ]

    They claimed that they killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the
    messenger of God! In fact, they never killed him; they never crucified
    him; they were led to believe that they did.
    [ Quran 4:157 ]

    If you still cant use your brain nothing i an do about it, only Allah can show you the True way and that is Islam!

    Ahmedemin

    June 16, 2008 at 5:30 pm

    • Then you clearly do not understand what Jesus mission on earth was about? To wash away our sins. He had to die so we may live. We are all born in sin, you really think all the good you do in this world measures up to Gods standards?

      Why is it when God spoke to Moses did God say to Moses no other Israelite can look upon him? Or they shall die? Because god is so holy that a sinful person who looks upon God will die. Even a sin of lying you will die because Good is with out sin, so how does islam offer you the way to God if you sin is un holy ti God? What price must be paid?

      The price is the blood of jesus who made me debt free and cleansed so I can be with God as I am made holy for God.

      inchrist

      December 30, 2012 at 10:55 pm

  19. Ahmedemin,

    You didn’t ask a question. What is your question? I am willing to answer questions, but continually repeating out of context quotations from the Bible that you don’t understand and refuse to try to grasp isn’t helping you build a case.

    Andrew

    http://seekingtheface.wordpress.com

    Andrew

    June 16, 2008 at 8:06 pm

  20. I m going to ask you a question now,

    Question: How were God’s people saved before the coming of Jesus Christ?

    Also please wach a movie Clip here a Protestant Frome Usa Texas. He will tell you about Islam.

    http://truereligiondebate.wordpress.com/category/jimmy-swaggart-vs-ahmed-deedat-is-the-bible-the-word-of-god/

    ( Islam Christian Preachers From Texas Become Muslim – Yusuf Estes ) A Christian who became Muslim you wont lose anyhting waching this! Just listen to him.

    Ahmedemin

    June 17, 2008 at 3:59 pm

  21. The word Trinity is not in the Bible, oh wait The word Bible is not in the Bible. Can you show where in bible the word Trinity is ? or even show me where the word Bible is in Bible ? Another question!

    Ahmedemin

    June 17, 2008 at 4:05 pm

    • Yhwh :)
      Theres the trinity.

      And you have now admitted that Allah does not have a holy spirit. Thefore islam is spiritly dead.

      inchrist

      December 30, 2012 at 10:59 pm

  22. The mother and father participate equally in producing a child. The cells of human beings contain 46 chromosomes, which carry the genes or character bearing threads of life. The ovum of a human mother possesses only 23 of the 46 chromosomes, which is half the number found in each man and woman. When the mother’s ovum is ready and available for insemination, the other half of the chromosomes which it lacks, is provided by the male sperm, which then enters and fertilizes it. This is the design of God, otherwise, the number of chromosomes would begin to double with every generation. As a result the second generation would have 92 chromosomes; humans would soon be transformed into giants and the entire process of growth would run amok. God has so beautifully planned and designed the phenomenon of the survival of species that at productive levels of regenerative cells, chromosomes are halved in number.

    The mother’s ovum contains 23 chromosomes and so does the father’s sperm. As such, one can reasonably expect half the characters bearing genes of the child to be provided by the female and half by the male partner. This is the meaning of a literal son. There is no other definition of being a literal son which can be ascribed to any human birth. There are variations in the methodology of course, but there are no exceptions to the rules and principles just explained.

    Focusing our attention on the birth of Jesus, let us build a scenario about what might have happened in his case. The first possibility, which can be scientifically considered, is that Mary’s unfertilized ovum provided the 23 chromosomes as the mother’s share in the forming of the embryo. That being so, the question would arise as to how the ovum was fertilized and where did the remaining 23 essential chromosomes come from? It is impossible to suggest that Jesus’ cells had only 23 chromosomes. No human child can be born alive with even 45 chromosomes. Even if a human being was deprived of a single chromosome out of the 46 necessary for the making of all human beings, the result would be something chaotic, if there was anything at all. Scientifically, Mary could not provide the 46 chromosomes alone, 23 had to come from somewhere else.

    If God is the father then that presents several options. One; God also has the same chromosomes that humans have, and these must have been transferred somehow to the uterus of Mary. That is unbelievable and unacceptable; if God has the chromosomes of human beings it means he is no longer God. So as a consequence of belief in Jesus as the literal ‘Son’ of God, even the divinity of the Father is jeopardised.

    The second possibility is that God created the extra chromosomes as a supernatural phenomenon of creation. In other words, they did not actually belong to the person of God, but were created miraculously. This would automatically lead us to reject Jesus’ relationship to God as one of child and father, and would result in the all embracing relationship of the Universe to God, that is, the relationship of every created being to its Creator.

    Is a Literal Son of God Possible?

    Evidently therefore, literal sonship of God is impossible because a literal son must have half the character of his father and half the character of his mother. So another problem surfaces, the son would be half man and half god. But those who believe in the literal sonship, claim and emphasise that Christ was a perfect man and a perfect god.

    If the chromosomes were half the required number then we are not left with any problem, no child would be born anyway. Suppose it did happen, that child would only be half a man. Not to mention the missing twenty-three full chromosomes, even a single defective gene within one chromosome can play havoc with a child born with such a congenital defect. He could be blind, limbless, deaf and dumb. The dangers attendant to such a mishap are unlimited. One should be realistic; it is impossible to conceive God as possessing any chromosomes, human or otherwise.

    Therefore, with the personal physical contribution of God having been ruled out, if a son were born to Mary with only the human character bearing genes possessed by her ovum, whatever the outcome, he would certainly not be the ‘Son’ of God. At best you can describe that freak of nature as half a man and no more. If the reproductive organs of Mary were like any other female and still the ovum were to fertilize somehow by itself, the maximum one can expect is the creation of something with only half the human characters. It is abominable to call that something the ‘Son’ of God.

    Ahmedemin

    June 17, 2008 at 5:26 pm

    • Lol really Why would God need to have sex with Mary? inorder to be born as a human? Thats the whole point of Jesus is that it could never happen but guess what if God can creat a universe and all powerful I highly doubt its impossiable for Yhwh to manafest into Marys womb, since Yhwh knows how to stitch a baby in a womb Im sure God can stitch himself in a womb. Allah on the other hand Im sure would not possess more power than a stone rock.

      inchrist

      December 30, 2012 at 11:10 pm

  23. Ahmedemin,

    I have answered your question about the Trinity already. The Bible not calling itself the Bible is a silly argument. The Bible is a collection of Scriptural writings.

    Before the coming of Christ God’s people were saved by faith in the promises of God. Genesis tells us that “Abraham believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness.” I could write an entire paper on this, but the book of Hebrews does it for me.

    Your argument over sonship does not show a proper knowledge of the doctrine or an understanding of God’s creative power. You should try to do your own work and not plagiarize Mirza Tahir Ahmad’s writings and act like they are your own.

    Unless you can ask a question with an attempt at understanding and less “I TOLD YOU SO!” I am finished with this conversation.

    Andrew

    http://seekingtheface.wordpress.com

    Andrew

    June 17, 2008 at 7:56 pm

  24. Did i every say the word is mine ?
    Offcourse you are finished you have nothing to respond yet you get angry and try to stab me.

    Be calm, i dont hate you.

    All Muslim brothers are ok to Copy my POST just to help them a answer a Christian. All we Muslims do we dont do and say its mine we do for Allah and all Muslims are brothers.

    You Andrew are denying your own Bible, you are not beliving in your own Bible and yet you take Bible words and belive something in a different way but not the word what it actually means instead you ask me to belive in a lie.

    If i made you sad or angry some way I apologize. I never said any text is mine, just wanted to give an example. Btw all Text i did put here non is mine i did read in internet did copy it becuse it says you can copy for use to answer other Christians.

    Anyway i wont bother you more Gl in future its time to Prya ISha for me i will make a Prayer for you.

    There is no God But God and Muhammed a.s is his Servant and Prophet !

    Ahmedemin

    June 17, 2008 at 10:17 pm

  25. Ahmedemin,

    I am perfectly calm and have been all along.

    I believe what the Bible says, which you obviously do not understand. I am not denying anything, but your misuse and misunderstanding is obvious.

    Anytime you quote from another person’s material you should always give them credit.

    Andrew

    http://seekingtheface.wordpress.com

    Andrew

    June 17, 2008 at 10:24 pm

  26. oh and Btw i dont think thats progress is Mirza Tahir Ahmad’s either, he might have learned it frome somwhere and understand then write and post it.

    http://www.harunyahya.com you can find lots similar here.
    You can download lots movies or Books hundreds for free
    use even the Quran for free in English. We muslims dont do good for money but spend money do good and give free to others so we can expect reward frome Allah after death!

    Do you want to see Miracle of Quran movies ?
    You will get impressed you wont lose anything just wach it.

    MIRACLES OF THE QUR’AN 1
    http://api.fmanager.net/api_v1/productDetail.php?dev-t=EDCRFV&objectId=1267

    MIRACLES OF THE QUR’AN 2
    http://api.fmanager.net/api_v1/productDetail.php?dev-t=EDCRFV&objectId=5369

    MIRACLES OF THE QUR’AN 3
    http://api.fmanager.net/api_v1/productDetail.php?dev-t=EDCRFV&objectId=5370

    Ahmedemin

    June 17, 2008 at 10:25 pm

  27. I was thinking different, if i quote and give them praise and credit he would have had his reward in earth frome a human so i was thinking i make instead praying and he get his Reward after death in Paradise which is forever.

    This is Hadith frome my Hadith book!
    Abu Musa said The Prophet heard a man Praising another man and saying good words about him while he was present with them He, said, You have destroyed or broke the back of the man.

    This is Hadith frome my Hadith book!
    Ibrahim At-taymi said that his father said, “We were sitting in presence of Umae r.a when a man praised another man to his face. Umar r.a said you Aqartahu(crippled him), may Allah do the same to you”.

    This is Hadith frome my Hadith book!
    AbuMamar said that a man stood up and praised one of the leaders, the Al-Migdad started throwing sand in his face and saying, The Messenger of Allahordered us to throw sand in the faces of Praisers!

    What Prophet Muhammed s.a.v actually meant is stop Praising each other in face, dont do good just to get Praise frome Humans instead expect the Praise frome Allah in secret(example pray in secret like My lord i did this and that good only just so you could forgive me, you sinning servant. Allah the almighty help me to stay away frome human Desire and whatever i do i dont want human Praises juts your forgivness) thats the best good you can do !

    This was my last post, my wish was only to help you to see the truth. Read Muhammeds s.a.v life and understand how good and forgiving person he was!

    Ahmedemin

    June 17, 2008 at 11:50 pm

  28. Please see:

    1- The Role of the Holy Spirit in Islam:

    http://www.answering-christianity.com/holy_spirit.htm

    TheonlyTruthDEATH

    June 19, 2008 at 10:54 pm

    • How can Islam have a holy spirit? Since you deny God has trinity. How can islam have a holy spirit?

      inchrist

      December 30, 2012 at 11:12 pm

  29. Dear All,

    I keep thinking that the “root cause” of the issue the “Language”.
    It has been “unclear” what was the language of Taurat (Torah), Zabur (Psalm), Injil (Bible), and Quran. I am little disappointed with those quick claims of saying about Hebrew, Aramaic, Arabic without thorough thinking, study, and research.

    The basic question is “Can a human create a language out of vacuum?”. Do we think that English is an original language by itself?

    My point with those is Yes the content of Taurat, Zabur, Injil can NOT be destroyed because the Quran revives them after being corrupted AT ONE POINT. Why I say at one point? By times the Quran itself could be corrupted not physically, but the MEANING. How come? Millions people are still thinking that the Quran is in Arabic. So they translate the Quran using “popular Arabic” per se. Example: How we translate “Qur’anan Arabiyyan”. Now most of us just say “Quran is in Arabic language”. Is it correct? How about ” Quran is in a language that is the root of Arabic”. Remember that “yy”. How about “Dzulqarnain”? What is it? Who is it?

    Peace

    Toro Kambali
    California

    Toro Kambali

    July 10, 2008 at 5:59 pm

  30. Keep the Quran in your Ark (Heart) for it is the Sakina (Tranquility) of Allah.

    As with those of old you will be enlightened when you see the one wraped up in cloth with hanging fingers from the sides of the fabric, his tongue moist with the Word of Allah.

    Have patience for the Hour is near.

    alfaarooq1

    July 9, 2009 at 1:58 pm

  31. Exciting new book:

    ‘Forgery and Counter-forgery: The Use of Literary Deceit in Early Christian Polemics’

    Unlike his other books, this is directed at scholars and those who have an advanced knowledge of New Testament studies. It is 600+ pages and you can judge its quality and worth by going through the many pages available for viewing on Amazon.

    “Arguably the most distinctive feature of the early Christian literature,” writes Bart Ehrman, “is the degree to which it was forged.” The Homilies and Recognitions of Clement; Paul’s letters to and from Seneca; Gospels by Peter, Thomas, and Philip; Jesus’ correspondence with Abgar, letters by Peter and Paul in the New Testament–all forgeries. To cite just a few examples.

    Forgery and Counterforgery is the first comprehensive study of early Christian pseudepigrapha ever produced in English. In it, Ehrman argues that ancient critics–pagan, Jewish, and Christian–understood false authorial claims to be a form of literary deceit, and thus forgeries. Ehrman considers the extent of the phenomenon, the “intention” and motivations of ancient Greek, Roman, and Jewish forgers, and reactions to their work once detected. He also assesses the criteria ancient critics applied to expose forgeries and the techniques forgers used to avoid detection. With the wider practices of the ancient world as backdrop, Ehrman then focuses on early Christian polemics, as various Christian authors forged documents in order to lend their ideas a veneer of authority in literary battles waged with pagans, Jews, and, most importantly, with one another in internecine disputes over doctrine and practice. In some instances a forger directed his work against views found in another forgery, creating thereby a “counter-forgery.” Ehrman’s evaluation of polemical forgeries starts with those of the New Testament (nearly half of whose books make a false authorial claim) up through the Pseudo-Ignatian epistles and the Apostolic Constitutions at the end of the fourth century.

    Shining light on an important but overlooked feature of the early Christian world, Forgery and Counterforgery explores the possible motivations of the deceivers who produced these writings, situating their practice within ancient Christian discourses on lying and deceit.

    Published by Oxford University Press

    http://bloggingtheology.wordpress.com/2012/12/29/exiting-new-book-forgery-and-counter-forgery-the-use-of-literary-deceit-in-early-christian-polemics/

    Paul Williams

    December 29, 2012 at 4:22 pm

  32. To exaiming the question Does the Quran say that The Bible could not have been corrupted we first need to establish the authority of the Quran and the postition held by muslims Quran said 14 centuries ago, about changes to The Bible, is now undisputed common knowledge.

    Well lets look at the facts,

    firstly who is the witness that God gave the writing to muhammad? Which scripture witnesses about muhammad?

    Why is it that muhammad has not being delievered like all the other prophets?

    Moses received on Mount Sinai, in the sight of all the people, the Law of God who appeared in cloud and fire and darkness and storm. 

    how did the writing come down to muhammad? In his sleep or in fits?

    So really what authority does the Quran have to say on whether the bible is corrupted? The answer is none. The simple question how can you take a persons word who doesnt get his information directly from God and not witness with him when he got the Quran from an angel? how could one possibly take this person seriously?

    Secondly

    How can the Quran weight the word of God against the weight of the Bible? The answer is the bible clearly out weighs the Quran and that Ill explain now

    The bible has 1,817 prophecies thats about 27% of the entire bible for example, Daniel prophesied the coming of the Medo-Persian, Greek, and Roman empires, Alexander the Great, and the details of many military battles. Many other prophecies are still awaiting their fulfillment.

    Another one the return of the Jews to the land of israel is a great example of biblical prophecy.

    Right now we see Zacheraih 12 being in the process of being fillfulled Jerusalem to be a burdensome stone for all people.

    Please explain to me with a straight face the bible is corrupted? The mere fact that alot of prophecies have come to pass and the prophecy of Jews returning can only be devine working how on earth can anyone deny the fact the bible is un corruptable or even think of saying the bible is corrupt? How can the Quran possibly compete with this and say its corrupted? What arrogance and mutilation of God.

    This is what Yewah has to say about religions who say the bible is corrupted

    “Let them bring them forth, and shew us what will happen: let them shew the former things, what they be, that we may consider them, and know the latter end of them; or declare us things for to come.

    inchrist

    December 30, 2012 at 10:12 pm


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