Hard Questions

frank, open and honest discussions

Arianism: The Chtistian Doctrine confirmed by Islam

with 49 comments


Today’s Question: Was Arius of Alexandria a heretic or a Mytre ?Arianism is a form of Original Christian faith, which was prevailing in large areas of the Christian world in the first 3 centuries after Christ ministry. Arians rejected the deity of Jesus pbuh, and maintained that he was a creation and a subordinate of God Almighty. They supported their doctrinal position by citing many of the books that later came to constitute the Canon of the New Testament.

The most famous Arian, though, by no means the founder of the faith, was Arius of Alexandria, who died in suspicious circumstances at the palace of the Byzantine emperor. Many considered him a mytre, a view which is also held by some contemporary scholars.

The view of Christ advocated by Arians is compatible with the Muslim faith, which considers Jesus, pbuh, as the Last prophet of Israel, and one of the five Major prophets sent by God to Mankind, The others being: Noah, Abraham, Moses and Muhammad, peace be upon all of them:

Quran: 33:7-8: And when We exacted a covenant from the prophets, and from thee (O Muhammad) and from Noah and Abraham and Moses and Jesus son of Mary. We took from them a solemn covenant; (7) That He may ask the loyal of their loyalty. And He hath prepared a painful doom for the unfaithful (8)

الأحزاب 7-8

*7*وَإِذْ أَخَذْنَا مِنَ النَّبِيِّينَ مِيثَاقَهُمْ وَمِنكَ وَمِن نُّوحٍ وَإِبْرَاهِيمَ وَمُوسَى وَعِيسَى ابْنِ مَرْيَمَ وَأَخَذْنَا مِنْهُم مِّيثَاقًا غَلِيظًا

لِيَسْأَلَ الصَّادِقِينَ عَن صِدْقِهِمْ وَأَعَدَّ لِلْكَافِرِينَ عَذَابًا أَلِيمًا *8

Written by Rasheed Gadir

October 11, 2007 at 7:30 am

49 Responses

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  1. You may indeed claim that Arianism was larger body, but there is little to support this, additionally there is only one point of agreement between Islam and Arianism, that has to do with the deity of Jesus. Beyond that there is no agreement. Additionally, the deity of Jesus aside, the teachings of Jesus and of Islam do not agree.

    hkevinderr

    October 11, 2007 at 1:16 pm

    • I agree with hkevinderr and you may want to look at some movies for fun, The movie Jeremiah (on the life of the prophet), One Night with the King (the life of Queen Esther).

      DebbiePearl

      July 13, 2010 at 7:44 pm

    • kindly tell me please what else do you know about Arianism that makes you say the teachings of Jesus and of Islam do not agree, while there are no longer any scripts of Arius’ teachings , knowing that if there was any of them you wouldn’t be saying this now.

      amr

      October 6, 2012 at 8:32 am

  2. Arianism is not Christian doctrine! It was “kicked out” of the faith because it rejected the key point of our belief: That Jesus was the Son of God, and if you will, “of God,” (or consubstantial, as theologians call it). The word consubstantial comes from the Greek homoousios, which means of the same being. Thus, if you reject that Christ is consubstantial with the Father, than you also reject God, of which he is incontrovertibly and eternally a part. Any person claiming that Christ is not God does not worship the God of Christianity (Who is the real and only True God). Arius was an apostate or a heretic, call him what you will; so were many others after him. The Bible warned us repeatedly about false doctrines. Christ-deniers (those who deny Christ’s divinity have proliferated on this planet ever since then, which was also predicted by the Bible.)

    Only by coming to Christ, the real, biblical Christ, can someone receive salvation from God.

    deusleveult

    October 26, 2007 at 1:34 am

    • “You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.” John 14:28

      Arius was right. the Christopagan Romans were wrong.

      t

      October 31, 2011 at 10:15 pm

      • The romans did this for pure marketing reasons. 1) arianism is too close to judiasm(the wanted their OWN religion) 2) since the romans and greeks were so used to their 1 million gods it was hard to ask them to pray to one god so they developed 3 in 1 and then all the darn saints to pray to also….sheesh…….it is really pretty simple to see this.

        the main reason christianity is being divided and conquered is because there are too many ways to interpert the bible. the ambiguity is destroying ALL christians…………….you can thank the Roman Empire for that.

        t

        October 31, 2011 at 10:21 pm

    • so do you say that jews do not believe in God,an they will not receive salvation from God?
      just if you do not agree with the old testament

      amr

      October 6, 2012 at 8:43 am

    • Well actually it is a Christian doctrine and recognises God, Jesus and the holy spirit as entities but not the same entity. Arianism states that God created Christ and they created the HS. Unlike Roman Catholic Christianity which recognises the trinity as consubstantial, Arianism recognises the primacy of God over Christ and the HS and that of Christ over the HS. In most other areas Arianism and early Catholicism are very similar….

      ipsofacto

      March 31, 2015 at 2:22 pm

  3. To whom it may concern,
    I have never accepted Jesus as a son of G-d, a divine figure,who was born out of a virgin woman Mary.Jesus was an important historical person who never started a new movement at all.And he lived his life as a Jew and died as a Jew in Israel.
    Joseph was Jesus’ father,who,also,sired other children,one of them was Jacob or James,who succeeded Jesus,after he was murdered by the Romans,as a leader of the Messianic movement.
    In the ancient world I would be classed as an Ebionite,or an Arian,a movement started by a so-called heretic priest Arius by majority of the religious Councillors of Nicaea in 325AD,who,unanomously,accepted Jesus as a Son of G-d and the Trinity,The Nicene creed.
    I would be interested to hear your response,yours truly David Rosenboom.

    David Rosenboom

    January 12, 2009 at 9:19 am

    • I had not accepted Jesus either until 22 1/2 years ago and didn’t understand the difference with anything. 500 years ago my ancestors were Jewish and were the grandfather was forced to convert. My mother was a wonderful Christian, but I didn’t understand her beliefs, so I grew…until I was faced with the reality of my pride and saw Jesus face to face and accepted Him as God Incarnate. God who came to pay for the sin of the world in Genesis and who released me to a new life.
      Am I different because of my belief? Definitely yes. I had tried all kinds of religions, none brought peace, As soon as I received Him, I had and have had since a peace that passes all understanding. I believe in God incarnate, else who could have paid for sin? He is prophesied in Isaiah, David calls him Adonai in Psalms, read the first 4 Psalms. In genesis, Abraham is told of his seed (one). In Genesis, when God tells them the consequence of their sin, God says He will bruise your head (power) and you will bruise his heel (crucifixion). As to the trinity, Elohim is the plural We, this is used in Genesis when talking about God.
      As to the movement. Well, yes, he started a new movement, and He knew it. He paid for our sins, which only God could do (in the prophets G-d says that no one can do it, that He has to do it. So He takes human form and comes down and dies in human body (He who committed no sin), it had to be a pure being, no one is pure but G-d. Then, He goes back to be with the Father, and again with the Elohim, but leaves for us His Spirit at Pentecost, and tells us He does this, and then goes back to the original plan, to indwell with man, remember the feast of booths, where God comes down to dwell with man, well, that’s what it is, he came, left but is in me and everyone who believes in Him as the Elohim, not just Abba, not just logos, not just spirit, but Elohim. And then, the movement starts, when he ascends to heaven (remember in the Prophets when Joshua comes with a bloodied and stained mantle and god says, gie him new clean clothes, etc. etc. That is Him presenting himself to the Father, He who knew no sin was made sin for us. and Jesus (God incarnate says, Go and tell all about this new life, In Matthew 28:7, He says All authority in heaven and earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. and surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.” More on the movement: Think about it, you could not believe you were an Arian if Christianity (or the Way as it first was called) had not been a movement. No Arianism would have existed without Christianity, since the discussion is on the nature and work of Yeshua Hameshiah would not have been in question.

      DebbiePearl

      July 13, 2010 at 1:52 am

      • “As to the trinity, Elohim is the plural We, this is used in Genesis when talking about God.”
        How similar is “Eloh” to Arabic Ilaah! “unaa” is suffixed in Arabic(to mean Our Ilaah(Our God)).

        Plural of Majesty is not equivalent to Plurality of Beings.If you know Greek, Arabic or Hebrew, you would know that plural of majesty is used as a sign of respect for an individual being.

        A greek Muslim said while answering a Christian:

        “To give you an example , in the Greek language we also use plural as a sign of respect.

        When I speak to my mother I use the word Eseis meaning you but in plural.”
        http://xeniagreekmuslimah.wordpress.com/q-a/

        I don’t know whether Principles(Usool) of Tafseer(Exegesis,Hermeneutics) permit both the connotations of Oneness(Unitarianism) and oneness(sameness) or not in the following Aayah, but the similarity between Hebrew and Qur’aanic Arabic words is striking.Holy Spirit is Rooh-ul-Qudus in Qur’aan while in Hebrew it is Ruach alQodesh.

        Allaah The Exalted says:
        46.And argue not with the People of the Scripture unless it be in (a way) that is better, save with such of them as do wrong; and say: “We believe in that which has been be­stowed from on high upon us, as well as that which has been bestowed upon you; Our God(Ilaahunaa) and your God is Waahid(One), and unto Him we Surrender(The Arabic root word used for Surrendering unto God is shared by the word Islam here)”
        http://www.englishkuran.com/29-al-ankabut-the-spider/
        Waahid is similar to Hebrew Echad.

        Muhammd Elijah

        February 2, 2011 at 3:49 pm

    • Sorry this message was for you and I put it below. Just one more thing. You know how Yahweh gave us several names for Him which emphasized his qualities, healer, our banner, etc. Well הושוע IaHUShUA Yahshua. Yah for Yahweh and shua for Joshua, (savior). And, who is the deliverer who brought the children of Israel to the promise land? Joshua. So God’s Name given to man for this last 2000 years is Savior God or God my Savior. When the archangel Gabriel came to Mary and announced the birth he did not say his name will be Jesus, he said Emmanuel (God with us, again the reason for the feast of Booths) So here you have two small but powerful proofs for Jesus-God Incarnate. He doesn’t want just to be Yahweh, since the beginning He wanted to be our friend, our very close friend, so Jesus/God is not just God who Saves, but God my Savior; and, that’s where accepting Jesus as your personal savior is important, God wants to become Yahshua for you, God my Savior.
      P.S. Just a clarification, Arians didn’t start in the ancient world, (i.e., before Christ) but only after Christ.

      DebbiePearl

      July 13, 2010 at 5:35 pm

    • You are right that Jesus never said that he was G-D but the servant of G-D. Jesus was declaired G-D by 318 to 2 Vote in Nicene after the Arian group were exclude deleberately by the then emperor of Rome, Constantine who led a war against his enemy in the name of Gog. Trinity is also the fabricated fact and even was not part of the NT or the Gospel. Generally read a book entitled 26 Reasons why Jews do not believe in Jesus, by a jewish polemical figure, Asher Norman.

      Begashaw

      March 30, 2011 at 4:52 am

      • “Generally read a book entitled 26 Reasons why Jews do not believe in Jesus, by a jewish polemical figure, Asher Norman.” Accurate Belief or Disbelief in true King Messiah Jesus Son of Mary,salam(shalom in hebrew) and peace be upon him, is precisely what will determine the spiritual future of mankind, in the eternal life of akhirah which starts as soon as we die.Paulian Christianity-with its pagan theology is the key theological obstacle for Jewish disbelief in true King Messiah Jesus Son of Mary,salam(shalom in hebrew) and peace be upon him.The theological frame work of Islam removes those obstacles or alibi for disbelief.Jewish reverts to Islam like the following seem to understand this. http://jews-for-allah.org/

        Muhammad Elijah

        April 3, 2011 at 10:41 am

      • Actually Constantine was welcomed into the Christian faith by an Arian monk, and his son Constantine II spread the arian version of Christianity across the empire… it was effectively extinguished by Justinian when he conquered the Vandals in N Africa though, Jahovas Witnesses, Mormons, Unitarians expouse a Arian type faith and there are three see’s in the UK.

        ipsofacto

        March 31, 2015 at 2:29 pm

  4. “For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached,or a different
    Gospel from the one you accepted,you put up with it
    easily enough.”2Corinthians11;4.(on false apostles)

    Samuel Murdock

    January 19, 2009 at 11:18 am

  5. In the Early Greek manuscripts of the New Testament, the word “Son” is not actually used but Jesus is called “Eved” which means Servant or Slave.

    And the word used in The Holy Qur’aan for Jesus is Abdullah which exactly means Servant of God.

    19:29 Thereupon she pointed to him. They exclaimed: “How can we talk to one who [as yet] is a little boy in the cradle?”
    19:30 [But] he said:”Behold, I am a servant of God. He has vouchsafed unto me revelation and made me a prophet,
    19:31 and made me blessed wherever I may be; and He has enjoined upon me prayer and charity as long as I live,
    19:32 and [has endowed me with] piety towards my mother; and He has not made me haughty or bereft of grace.
    19:33 “Hence, peace was upon me on the day when I was born, and [will be upon me] on the day of my death(after his second coming), and on the day when I shall be raised to life [again]!”
    19:34 SUCH WAS, in the words of truth, Jesus the son of Mary, about whose nature they so deeply disagree. [25]
    19:35 It is not conceivable that God should have taken unto Himself a son: limitless is He in His glory! [26] When He wills a thing to be, He but says unto it “Be” -and it is!
    19:36 And [thus it was that Jesus always said]: “Verily, God is my Sustainer as well as your Sustainer; so worship [none but] Him: this (alone] is a straight way.”
    19:37 And yet, the sects [that follow the Bible] are at variance among themselves [about the nature of Jesus Woe, then, unto all who deny the truth when that awesome Day will appear!
    19:38 How well will they hear and see [the truth] on the Day when they come before Us! Today, however, these evildoers are obviously lost in error:
    19:39 hence, warn them of [the coming of] the Day of Regrets, when everything will have been decided-for as yet they are heedless, and they do not believe [in it].

    112:1 Say: He is God, the One and Only;
    112:2 God, the Eternal, Absolute;
    112:3 He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;
    112:4 And there is none like unto Him.

    Elijah

    February 19, 2009 at 11:17 am

    • Just one more thing. You know how Yaweh gave us several names for Him which emphasized his qualities, healer, our banner, etc. Well הושועIaHUShUA Yahshua. Ya for Yaweh and shua for Joshua, and think who is the deliverer who brought the children of Israel to the promise land? Joshua. So his name is Savior God. When the angel Gabriel came to Mary and announced the birth he did not say Jesus, he said Emmanuel (God with us) So here you have two small but powerful proofs for Jesus, God Incarnate.

      DebbiePearl

      July 13, 2010 at 2:35 am

      • Hi Debbie.

        This is my understanding of the referrence you make re. Emmanuel. You refer to Jesus bearing the name Emmanuel (God with us) When the the angel of God appeared to Joseph in a dream he was told when Mary gave birth to the son begotten by Holy Spirit he was to be called Jesus… Matthew 1:21-23 “for he will save his people from their sins. For that to be fulfilled which was spoken by God through His prophet”. (Isaiah 7:8 Isaiah 8:8). After Jesus’ birth Joseph called his name Jesus.

        Emmanuel refers to the birth of the chosen one in the dead sea scrolls. This chosen one is the son spoken of in Revelations 12:5 and she gave birth to a son who is to shepherd all the nations with an iron rod. And the child was caught away to God and his throne.

        Jesus came to earth to die and has come in our day to Judge the earth. Revelations 19:13-16 Jesus is and was King of the Jews and King of kings and Lord of lords.

        J Manders

        October 10, 2010 at 9:47 pm

    • I don’t know which early Greek manuscripts you’re referring to, but maybe you could give references. the passage that you add is from the Koran. You can see in the Psalms of David that son is used to refer to Jesus. More importantly, he is called Emmanuel, which means, God with us. Jesus, or in other languages, Iesu, Yahshua (God our Savior). He is God himself come down.

      Jesus says, I call you friends, to the apostles. He doesn’t call himself ever servant, he calls himself son of man and also I AM, Yah… the people called him lord God, Adonai. In Psalms God calls him Son. He is a servant in the sense of doing the work that is needed to redeem your soul from the bondage of sin, just from the evil that keeps you in darkness, so that you can experience freedom of choice in the true sense of the word. He is the suffering servant, but of humanity, freeing us, serivng us to redeem us to see us content and well. He is a loving God.

      The passage you have there is from the Koran, right? Well this doesn’t work well. To prove to us that what Mohammed says is true, you will need to use the whole Bible, not what Mohammed says. You see, the Koran just confirms his Arianism and that he got his Koran from an Arian slave, who in his own deceived way was trying to be a Christian, but had been thrown out of a convent for his beliefs that did not agree with the BIBLE.

      Now, why is the Bible important, because it’s not the Word of a prophet, it’s the Words that God said. It tells the story of the people.

      If you go to archeological research you will see that the copy of Isaiah, a Bible prophet, has not changed from before Christ. The copy of the book is exactly the same. The inscription of the book in stone is found in the Holy Land and is kept protected fron the elements, I believe in a place you can visit, close to the Death Sea. And, the case is the same with the other books. The copies we have of the New testament have the Words of Jesus from very early on. Much earlier than when Mohammed wrote the Koran, which was between 500 something and 630. that could not be more accurate than documents from the first centuries after Christ died.

      first Mohammed says, read the books of the Jews and Christians, and then he forbids you to read them with the risk of losing paradise. Why? What is different in the Bible that needs to be hidden. The books are older than the Koran and keep to the original and Genesis and Numbers keep the genealogy of Abraham from whom many Muslims descend.

      If a book is true, then it can stand the proof of truth, of research, so the Koran should be compared to the Bible and to archeology. Lot of archeology is being done by Arabs. Why forbid the reading of the Bible? How else are you going to find truth. God my Savior does not forbid me from reading the Koran, why would you forbid your followers from reading the Bible?

      Jesus is so specific about relationships, that He says: “I call you friends”

      DebbiePearl

      July 13, 2010 at 6:13 pm

      • “You see, the Koran just confirms his Arianism and that he got his Koran from an Arian slave” Who is this Arian slave? Did he speak Arabic?Because the Ishmaelite Prophet Muhammad,may salat and salam(shalom in hebrew) of Allah be upon him, was an ummi.As far as I know, an ummi is a person who can neither read nor can he write.An ummi doesn’t study under any teacher.I want to understand how Christian disbelief in the Prophethood(Nubuwwah) of the Ishmaelite Prophet(Nabi) Muhammad(saaws)and Christian understanding of His being an ummi is similar/dissimilar to the pagan disbelievers in the Ishmaelite Prophet Muhammad(saaws), in the formative Islamic history.

        Muhammad Elijah

        April 3, 2011 at 11:10 am

    • Have you read the story of Esther? She is venerated by Arabs and her tomb is in Iran. The book of Esther you can read it the Bible. Becoming a Bible scholar might be something you can do, that is, if truth is important to you.

      DebbiePearl

      July 13, 2010 at 6:18 pm

      • Dear Debbie

        Why would Arabian people venerate Esther? Esther was deported from Jerusalem along with King Jehoiachin in 617 B.C. Unbeknown to the King of Shushan the son of Darius the Mede Esther was Jewess. Ahasuerus the King married Esther and through faithfulness she saved her uncle Mordecai and the Jewish people from being slaughtered by Haman. This deliverence was commemorated by the festival of Purim set on 14th and 15th of Adar the last month of the Jewish Year.

        This account does not have application to Esther being venerated. All true Christians venerate God alone. Even the Son of God venerates his Father and did not seek worship. Luke 4:8 Jesus replied when Satan offered the authority and glory in his power if Jesus would do an act of worship before him “It is written, ‘It is Your God you must worship and it is to him alone you must render sacred service’.

        J Manders

        October 13, 2010 at 3:23 am

    • Arius taught that:

      “Yeshua was a man to be followed not worshipped, a tzaddik Jew, was descended from King David in the flesh (Romans 1:3), the son of God with power according to the spirit (Romans 1:4). All authority in heaven and earth was given to Yeshua the Messiah (Matthew 28:18, Ephesians 1:20-21), himself human, whom is our ONE mediator between man and God (1 Timothy 2:5-6a), the spiritual foundation rock of the Church (Matthew 16:18), whom was the firstborn of creation (Colossians 1:15-16), he created the heavens and the earth (1 Corinthians 8:5-6) and therefore there was a time when he did not exist thus God the Father and His son were not co-eternal nor of the same substance (Philippians 2:6-9), seeing the pre-eminent Yeshua (known as Immanuel (Isaiah 7:14)) as a divine being (though not a god or demi-god but more like an Archangel (Messenger of God) superior to Angels (Hebrews 1:3-4), see LXX Isaiah 9:6: “The Angel of Great Counsel”) but nonetheless created by (and consequently inferior to) the Father at some point, before which the son did not exist (Proverbs 8:22-31, John 14:28). The pre-eminent Yeshua appears in the Hebrew Testament as the Angel of God’s presence (Genesis 18, Exodus 23:20-21, Isaiah 63:9, Matthew 16:18, 1 Corinthians 10:1-4 and 1 Thessalonians 4:16).”

      They aren’t my words but like many others they use biblical quotes to justify a position…

      ipsofacto

      March 31, 2015 at 2:34 pm

  6. Oh yes, and when they asked him if he was God, he answered, “you have said it.” or I AM. when he used the Yah, the servants of the High Priest all fell backwards.
    Yahweh is I am, so his name was I am Saviour, or I am salvation. I love it. God does everything to perfection.

    DebbiePearl

    July 13, 2010 at 2:42 am

    • Greetings Debbie,

      Could you please direct me to the scripture backing your information that Jesus claimed to be God?

      In Matthew 27:11 Pilot asked Jesus “Are you the King of the Jews?” Jesus replied “You yourself say it.”

      So Jesus was crucified for acknowledging his rightful position. Not that he was God but our King and saviour.

      It was the religious zealotes who denied Jesus as their King. It was they who had Jesus delivered up to a torturous death. John 19:15 When Pilate said “Shall I impale YOUR King?” what did they answer? “We have no King but Caesar”.

      Paul wrote in 2nd Corinthians 1:3 “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ the Father of tender mercies and the God of all comfort”. This refers to God as the Father of Jesus Christ. John 15:10 If YOU observe my commandments YOU remain in my love just as I have observed the commandments of the Father and remain in His love. Jesus was telling the disciples he remained in loyal servitude to His Heavenly Father and did not consider himself equal to God Philippians 2:5,6 “Keep this mental attitude in you that was also in Christ Jesus who although he was existing in God’s form gave no consideration to a seizure, namely that he should be equal to God.

      John 14:28 Jesus said to his apostles “I am going away to my Father because the Father is greater than I am!”

      In view of all the scriptures written I cannot see any backing your claim that Jesus declared himself GOD.

      J Manders

      October 10, 2010 at 8:52 pm

  7. This was a great discussion. I really appreciate reading the well thought out and polite comments. Specifically Elijah and Debbie.
    I have been reading history lately, specifically regarding the Byzantines. Many events and concepts discussed in books by Ostrogorsky and Vassilev surround the debate of Arianism. I decided to research on Wiki. After reading about Arianism, it is a simple question to wonder if somehow the root Islam is in the commonly accepted teachings of Arius of Alexandria. It is not a stretch to “wonder” if Arianism had spread into the Arab lands. Very curious……?

    Zach

    October 7, 2010 at 8:39 am

    • Yes Zach Debbie’s comments are well thought out. It is just a pity the comments given are not backed by the words of the prophets or biblical and historical truth.

      J Manders

      October 13, 2010 at 3:31 am

    • Moses preached monotheism. All Biblical prophets did the same and none of them preached that the son is God or God is coming as the son. Islam follows the same tradition of all prophets. Saying that Islam has its roots in Arianism is very similar to saying that Judaism has its roots in Arianism. Absolute nonsense.
      There is only one God and thus there is only one religion. It is the religion of Abraham and the prophets that came after Abraham. One God, one religion, many messengers preaching the same.
      PLEASE read Matthew 26:39. Jesus fell on his face (like Muslims do) and prayed.
      Does anyone pray to himself????????????????

      Tamer

      November 9, 2010 at 7:06 am

  8. Hi all,
    Arius was a fellow Luchianist, so arianism is older that some think.

    “Opponents of Arianism, such as Alexander of Alexandria, countered this veneration by noting Lucian’s schismatic past. Marcus Victorinus identified the Eusebian party with Lucian. Epiphanius associates Lucian with heretical views about Christ’s human soul held by Arians (but also by others) and relates that the Arians venerated Lucian as their martyr and that Lucian lived together with Eusebius at Nicomedia.[4]”
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucian_of_Antioch

    Takacs Janos

    November 20, 2010 at 3:04 pm

  9. I studied some Arians saying that they believe in spiritual sonship of Jesus(as).Holy Qur’an, however, treats every idea of sonship-fatherhood, whether Jewish,Christian or in any non-Islamic religion, in the context of Allah-God as a serious blasphemy repenting from which is important before we die.Therefore, there are theological disagreement between Islam and Arianism which Muslims believe is less heterodox than other Christian sects today,because Muslims firmly believe that Earliest Christians were Muslims, because they followed pure Abrahamic(as) monotheism.Pure Abrahamic(as) monotheism(Tawhid or Tawheed-La ilaha ill Allah-No one is ilah(divine,worthy of worship and absolute obedience) except Allah-God of Abraham(as),Ishmael(as),Isaac(as)) is the raison detre of Islam’s spiritual existence..(as) is short for ‘alaih-is-salam which means:salam(shalom in hebrew) and peace be upon him.

    Muhammad Elijah

    April 3, 2011 at 11:31 am

  10. Who “invented” the “Michael Christology”?

    “Arian Christology—the nontrinitarian belief that Christ was an archangel who chose to become a human …”
    /arian-christology-754891.html

    But this is the Arius invention?

    Raoul V.: “The Arab historian Shahrastani (Seventh Century) affirms that, in the Fourth Century, Arius borrowed his doctrine, according to which the Messiah is the first angel of God for the Magharians, “who lived four hundred years before Arius and were known by the simplicity of their way of life and their serene abstinence.”
    “Who were these Magharians, whose existence dates back to the First Century before the Christian era? Their Arab name leaves little doubt; it means “people of the cavern or the cave,” because — Shahrastani makes clear — they hid their sacred texts in caverns.”
    “There is nothing surprising in the fact that the doctrine of the Angel-Messiah (the angelos-christos) was originally Essene, since it was shared by the [various] Christianities and predominated up to the historization of Jesus, undertaken in the second half of the Second Century.”

    Arian Christology is Jewish-Magharian (Hassidim) Christology. Magharians was the Jewish “Hassidim” in the time of Antiochus IV Epiphanes.

    So, Arian Christology is the nontrinitarian belief that Christ was God’s archangel – Michael, who chose to become a human.

    Arian (Hassidim) Christology opossing Athanasian Christology

    What is Athanasian Christology?

    Athanasian (pro-sabbelian and neo-gnostic) Christology—the trinitarian belief that Christ was God himself who chose to become a human.

    Yosko

    April 4, 2011 at 4:43 am

  11. Due to the fact humans need to give god a face even monotheist religion change itself into polytheist. Even in Islam some sects give the prophet powers beyond god. When clearly it is a sin to do so. In Christianity lies the same issue unfortunately god like attributes have been given to a human.

    Gospel of John passage “You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.” (verse 14:28)[3]

    “The Lord created me at the beginning of his work” (Proverbs 8:22)

    Just got these off wiki, I believe in various levels of new old testament there is further proof that god is god n Jesus pbuh is human. As were all messengers of god. Any miracles or acts they performed was from the will of God.

    However luckily the re-coming of Jesus will put an end to the heretic belief that he is god or anything other than a human being. I believe he will not associate himself with a religious institution, rather preach the oneness of god and talk sense to humanity and enlighten them not to follow satanic institutions like media, banking, politics. Promote equal sharing of wealth and humanitarian principles. Remove power from hyper rich families which manipulate resources. Create a notion of responsibility for our own actions and to live within our means.

    hafiz

    August 28, 2011 at 2:04 am

  12. There are problems with islam
    1. Mohamed was alone with angels and cannot back his claims with witnesses that a book rained on him
    2. He lived dishonorably in regards to the law of Moses as far as sexuality is concerned
    3. He was extremely violent aganist those that stood in his way
    4. His religion is not compatible with natural law

    the problem with islam

    January 7, 2012 at 1:33 pm

    • Statements should be backed up using reliable scholarship.
      1. And Moses was alone when he talked to God. You know that Mohamed (pbuh) was telling the truth by studying his life and studying the Quran. One of his enemies who was the best expert in language and poetry at the time (equivalent to 7 PhDs) described Quran that it transcends and nothing can be higher and it is not the word of man. Another one of Mohamed’s enemies stated that Mohamed would never lie but they will not follow him because what he calls for would affect their economy and tradition. Please read the Quran.
      2. Mohamed lived honorably. Again read his biography. He had only one wife till the age of 50 and he was always faithful to her. After his wife’s death, he married an older woman than himself to help him with his children. This is not the attitude of a man who is after women (a womanizer) specially in an age where the life expectancy of a man was 37 years and people started having relationships at the onset of puberty.
      3. He was extremely merciful. When he had power over his enemies that drove him out of his home and tortured his followers, he let them go freely. He had to fight back those who continued to perform heinous transgressions against him and his followers. There is nothing against self defense against criminals. Again read his biography from a reliable source.
      4. Incompatibility with the natural law does not make any sense. Please have a more clear understanding of the teachings of Islam and the natural law.

      Tamer

      January 9, 2012 at 7:37 am

  13. Arius still taught that the Son was begotten before time by the Father, and through the Son all things were made, both the ages and the universe. I haven’t found any extant writings that say what Arius taught regarding the Incarnation, but it can’t have been radically out of line with the thought expressed by Athanasius, meaning that he would have held that Jesus died and was resurrected. I would think Islam would have some issues with such statements, no?

    Seamus

    February 29, 2012 at 10:35 am

  14. nope, if you actually bothered to read the writings of arius for yourself you would see that it in no way confirms islam. Arianism is not so much a rejection of the trinity as much as the idea that christ was a created lesser diety, elevated far above creation but not equal to the father. Arius taught that there was a time when christ was not, he believed in the crucifixion and resurrection. please tell me how this affirms the koran?

    civitate_dei

    April 14, 2013 at 6:59 am

  15. Free will is given to us by God. Whether we believe or not, ultimately, it is up to an individual. Muslims and Christians can argue,quoting their own relevant sources, and will come to different conclusions. I am a Catholic and believe in the Trinity. No true Muslim will believe in this, and even if he finally subscribes to this, any conversion will be ruled apostasy, punishable by death. A Christian,who wishes to deny his faith, can do so, without fear of reprisals, except for his full conscience. In the realm of evangelism, where each religion conscientiously pursue, conversion must be done with the free will and acceptance of the individual, not by compulsion. Once compulsion is enforced, it is insincere and unnatural. While we are creatures of God, created in His likeness, God wants us to respect, fear but most of all , to love Him. Peace, not by the sword. Jesus, also quoted in the Quran, will come, at the end of days, to judge the World. It is up to each and every one to believe in this, and in the end, whether it is good to love Jesus, the man, or Jesus, the Divine. I, for one, love Jesus the One.

    Joseph foo

    May 14, 2013 at 11:51 am

    • wow! This thread is still active after all these years! I am a Muslim and I believe that Arius being in support of Islam is a myth, propagated, unfortunately, by some Muslims. I would like to add two points.
      First: Trinity. If it is a central part of the faith, then it has to be mentioned in clearly written words somewhere. The only verse in the bible where trinity was mentioned has been removed recently by Christian scholars saying it was inserted centuries later.
      How can you believe in something that is not written anywhere? And it is a confusing idea too. If you ask a group of Christians; is Jesus God or is he the son or the father? They will be confused. Islam insists on rejecting confusion when it comes to doctrine. Islam insists that the belief in “one God” is a simple clear notion that can be understood by “all” human beings regardless of their sophistication or experience.
      The second point is:conversion is equal to apostasy punishable by death.
      Unfortunately many people say that including Muslims but it is completely false. Verse 2:256 says it very clearly that religion is tied to free will just as you mentioned.
      The death punishment for apostates was in a very specific scenario when people would leave the Muslim army and join the enemy. This was high treason and was punishable by death. People would agree to this even today. However, during peace time people are not forced into religion.

      Tamer

      June 18, 2013 at 4:29 am

      • With those two words “muslim army” you prove conclusively how false is your so-called religion. What all-powerful god would need puny humans to fight for him? Islam is nothing more gangsterism.

        rogero

        March 4, 2014 at 8:35 pm

  16. @rogero: They are fighting to protect themselves and the innocent people of all religions against aggression and injustice.

    Tamer

    March 6, 2014 at 10:40 pm

  17. If jesus is god, to who he was praying in the movie the passion of jesus?

    mee

    March 18, 2014 at 1:44 am

    • Obviously, Jesus prayed to the Father. How could you think he prayed to himself? There are three persons in the trinity, comprising one God.

      Marilyn

      May 30, 2014 at 7:35 am

      • The trinity is not in the Bible. If you think I am wrong to say this, then please tell me the verse number. Thank you.

        Tamer

        June 1, 2014 at 2:33 am

  18. Why do Muslims pick and choose any thing that fits their believes? Arise was a heretic that came centuries later. If arise was alive today he would not be a Muslim.

    jose

    March 13, 2015 at 12:17 pm

  19. Mohammed was a psychopathic, homicidal brat with delusions of grandeur. If you read the Koran in chronological order, that is, pre Medina and post Medina, you will see the difference. Pre Medina, you get all the lofty prose, poetry and peace context and content. After Medina, you get all the psychopathic, homicidal, delusional rage, because, by in large, Judaism and Christianity wouldn’t buy into his fantasy. When he ran a caravan business (inherited from his wife’s father, cause that’s the only way he would ever have accomplished it), it was the same pattern. He killed off all the competition till he was the only game in town.
    He reminds me of a little kid who throws a temper tantrum, stomps his feet, picks up his marbles and goes home, because no one wanted to play the game his way, and then wants to come back and torch everybody. And the tantrum still continues on and on, ad infinitum. Grow up and face the fact; He’s dead. He’s gonna stay dead, and he ain’t comin back! . . Yaaay!
    You folks can’t even keep the peace among people of your own persuasion. . . what does THAT tell you? You’re just not happy unless your killin SOMEbody! And now, you still wanna control the whole world. . . oh boy, that’ll be a happy place!

    slugger

    March 14, 2015 at 4:38 am


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